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Tony Evangelista - Part 2
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Tony Evangelista: As an aside, Beckenbauer was the best player who ever lived in my opinion. He was a genius. I was fortunate enough to work with Beckenbauer and I refereed him while he was playing with the Cosmos in his latter years as a player. He was so talented and everything to him was on the volley. He would receive the ball on a volley and automatically send it 30 yards to another player perfectly - he was just a genius. But also not only on the field, but with people as well.
RedNation Online: Do you think that MLS will sustain and grow more?
Tony Evangelista: Yes, I think so. Strictly based on finances and economics they have the right structure. The economic structure of the league is controlled centrally, because they don't want to make the same mistakes that the NASL did. The NASL expanded too quickly. They were so successful for a few years they expanded way too much and way too fast and ultimately just collapsed.
RedNation Online: So in this case the salary cap is a good thing?
Tony Evangelista: Oh yes, the salary cap and the control that they have within the league. And the way that they are running the clubs now, including Toronto FC, is that it is strictly business and about money. Money does everything. In soccer everything is about money. For the best teams in the world - Inter Milan, Manchester United, AC Milan, Liverpool, Bayern Munich - if they don't buy the best players, then they don't compete at that level that they do. To put your team into any winning position - to win the Champions League for example - unfortunately, it is all about money. It is a game, yes, but whoever buys the best players has the best chance to win championships. Money unfortunately is the root of all evil, but that is the way the game is played.
RedNation Online: But the MLS obviously cannot compete with those European Leagues for players.
Tony Evangelista: The MLS in comparison to European clubs is probably 3rd division.
RedNation Online: What scares a lot of people about the MLS in terms of its viability is that North Americans usually only want to watch the top leagues. Toronto, for example, has had other teams - USL and CSL teams - and nobody came out to watch it.
Tony Evangelista: They want to see the top players.
RedNation Online: And with the cap and the MLS payment structure, they can't get the top players.
Tony Evangelista: It's not like that only in Toronto, that is the way it is everywhere. People want to see the best players and good quality soccer. It's the same in hockey or any other sport. For hockey, how many go and see the Juniors? It's relatively popular, but what really gets support and viewers? The NHL. And that is our national sport.
RedNation Online: Ok. The flipside is - do you think the MLS should have relegation?
Tony Evangelista: No, not in North America. They could, but it would be expensive.
RedNation Online: If Toronto FC was in the 2nd division this year, who would come out and see them?
Tony Evangelista: That is the answer. Not many people. But once they get economically stable, they should have one or two more teams that are directly related to them and who are developing the amateur players. And I think they do have some kind of understanding or agreement with youth clubs, that they will help and try and develop. But as such a league, no they don't have that. But it would be better if they could formalize it because the kids would have an earlier time when they were 12 or 13 when they would be subject to signing and then they would spend some money developing these players. But it takes a long time, it takes years to develop that. It took Europe 100 years if not more. It takes time, but we are a very young country.
RedNation Online: So you definitely think that MLS is here to stay? It's not going to fold?
Tony Evangelista: No, no. It's here to stay. Because of the TV coverage being so constant from the rest of the world, more and more people are getting into soccer.
RedNation Online: What about the Beckham factor? What do you think about that? He was supposed to be the saviour of the league or the person that was going to take it to another level of popularity?
Tony Evangelista: No one individual is going to do it by themself.
RedNation Online: Then again he has not done anything. He hasn't gone out to the schools. He hasn't done anything to promote the game.
Tony Evangelista: The game is really promoted at the amateur level. It is always in the background. When these people - the players themselves, the coaches - they go to the schools and try and promote the game. I'm sure that they do, because they have to. That's how they attract the younger crowd. The new talent and the next generation.
RedNation Online: Toronto is the most successful team in the league in terms of fan interest.
Tony Evangelista: Toronto FC has promoted soccer in such a way that they have made it more inclusive. I can't afford to go and see the Maple Leafs play. The basic reason for that is if you don't buy the season's tickets, you can't buy a ticket anywhere and, if you can, it is too expensive. They average what $200 - $250? So if you have two tickets, one evening is going to cost you $500 or $600. That's the reality of life. So the elite and corporations are the only ones that can afford that. Unfortunately, for the everyday working person it is going to be a real task if they get to go maybe once a year.
RedNation Online: But soccer is for the working people and it always has been.
Tony Evangelista: That's exactly right. That's the difference and they promoted it with that in mind. But even now the Toronto FC are sold out for the year - but you can still get tickets. I don't think we have gone to that extreme yet or reached that level yet.
RedNation Online: So the competition isn't Leafs fans then.
Tony Evangelista: No.
RedNation Online: However, there is so much interest in Toronto FC and it's not based on a David Beckham playing. There isn't one player on Toronto FC that is the person that everyone is interested in or even non-soccer fans have heard of. I mean maybe De Rosario now but...
Tony Evangelista: The MLS tried to repeat the same thing as the NASL, which started with Pele. That was the base upon which the league was built. And, of course, they have tried it again with Beckham. They have tried to do the same thing with him. It didn't really work out that well. The same strategic promotion strategy. It's essentially the same people running the MLS who ran the NASL - the same people in the background and some of the same owners too.
RedNation Online: Haven't they learned from their mistakes?
Tony Evangelista: I think what one of the big differences is - a tangible difference from the NASL - is that the past generation - my generation - when I was younger, it was a strictly ethnic European following. Soccer fans and teams were grouped according to their country of birth. We thought of ourselves as Italians and Greeks and Yugoslavians, English, Serbians, etc. The teams were Toronto City, Toronto Falcons, Toronto Croatia. It was strictly ethnic group against ethnic group. And you still see that to some degree, but a much, much smaller one. But it's strictly an old mentality. Now I think that is very, very small percentage.
RedNation Online: Do you think that is repressed for 3 and half years and then comes out at World Cup time?
Tony Evangelista: That's part of the nature of soccer and people get excited because it is the biggest sporting event in the world.
RedNation Online: And they want to be part of it. And so you see half of Toronto becomes Brazilian during the World Cup.
Tony Evangelista: (Laughs)
RedNation Online: Bringing that idea back towards the Canadian National Team, some of the players have said that they get a little frustrated when they play home games against Jamaica or Spain or Honduras and all the Canadian fans are rooting for the team that represents where their parents came from or where they came from originally. We've all been witness to it. In many cases, nobody is cheering for Canada. How does Canada overcome that? Is that just a reality of a multicultural society?
Tony Evangelista: When you are first generation in Canada, you were brought up that way. It's not that you are against Canada. It's not that they don't love the country. I love Canada as much as anybody else. I have been here for 50 years now. But when Italy plays against Canada and people ask me who I root for, I say Italy. I've been rooting for Italy my whole life - what can I do? It's not something against Canada, it's just a cultural thing. One of the big factors in North America is that the everyday person looks at soccer from a very superficial level - they don't understand it. I'm not sure if I am phrasing this correctly - they don't seem to appreciate the plays and the strategy, the player movement. The strategic aspect of soccer - they don't seem to relate or see that yet.
RedNation Online: They aren't sophisticated fans?
Tony Evangelista: I don't think it has anything to do with sophistication. They just haven't reached a certain level yet. They are on the surface.
RedNation Online: They understand checkers but they don't understand chess yet.
Tony Evangelista: Yes. That's what soccer is, especially in the professional game. It's not about luck, it is about strategy and using your talent - your gifted players and very talented players that are expensive - to implement a system that will maximize their talents. And that's why the really smart coaches can name whatever price they want. And I think that is what we are most far away from. We are at the very early stages with respect to having those coaches available. And I talk to people every day - friends, associates - and they say soccer is boring because they don't see that aspect. In comparison - a direct comparison - I don't watch baseball, mostly because I don't understand it. I don't understand what is behind it, rather than viewing it as a person just hitting a ball with a bat. I think that is a big factor that needs to be overcome.
RedNation Online: So does the CSA have a hard time understanding that they need a coach who is a tactician?
Tony Evangelista: No. The CSA is an elected body - by constitution it is elected by the provinces. But they are also - believe it or not - politicians. They have the same basic political structure in all the provinces and they get together and the political side will decide who will be President of the association and so forth and so on.
RedNation Online: Well, you have said that TFC collects the money at the gates and then gives a certain portion to the CSA.
Tony Evangelista: Toronto FC has to be affiliated with the CSA and, first of all, approved by them. Or else they can't play. The CSA is affiliated with FIFA - they are recognized by FIFA. And the CSA controls all the clubs in Canada. All the clubs and all the players have to be affiliated with the CSA. So the professional clubs have certain rules and regulations and they have an affiliation with the CSA, they pay a fee to them from ticket sales and so and so forth. It is the structure that exists in Canada. Right now there is only one MLS team in Canada, so they generate only a certain amount for the CSA. Think about that in the context of Italy. They have 20 teams in the professional first division. They have 30 in the second division and another 30 or 40 in the third.
RedNation Online: And all countries are set up this way?
Tony Evangelista: The professional teams pay to their respective soccer associations.
RedNation Online: So then right now one of the biggest problems is that we have only one top level professional team?
Tony Evangelista: It's strictly numbers. We need more professional teams who not only bring in and develop the talent for the national team, but who also bring the financial resources required for the CSA to invest in having the national team training and playing together more often and supported and trained by more professional coaches.
RedNation Online: The Canadian Government does not fund the team in any way?
Tony Evangelista: I think they give them a grant of around half a million to a million dollars. That is the number I recall, but maybe it is moderately more now. That's not even enough to fund one friendly. Even $5 million is not enough to operate the team effectively. People forget that you need to pay the players too.
RedNation Online: You often hear the players complain about the financial aspects of the national team.
Tony Evangelista: It's not their fault, you can't blame the CSA. It is strictly the economics. It is strictly money that is the problem. And we all probably think that we could run the team better, but if you don't have the money, what are you going to do? Your hands are tied.
RedNation Online: It's a shame.
Tony Evangelista: Yes, but that is the first hurdle that we need to overcome.
RedNation Online: Obviously, we can't compare the Canadian situation to the traditional soccer powers because they developed their financial and development infrastructure over many years.
Tony Evangelista: You can't compare them because of money - first and foremost.
RedNation Online: But what about the African Teams that have made it to the World Cup?
Tony Evangelista: They are a little different. They are mainly supported by their governments. Those teams are fully supported by government.
RedNation Online: How about teams like Japan and South Korea? Are those teams supported by their professional leagues?
Tony Evangelista: Yes, they are. Australia is as well. They are the same ball of wax as Canada.
RedNation Online: Those three teams have had more recent success.
Tony Evangelista: Oh yes! And they have because of their professional leagues. We are just behind those countries in developing our professional league. When the U.S. was given the World Cup, FIFA attached a condition that they had to have a professional league in place. That's how they got the World Cup.
RedNation Online: But you also mentioned that the U.S. gets grants from the governments.
Tony Evangelista: Yes. The U.S. has more money.
RedNation Online: And generally the U.S. funds all sports, including things like the Olympics, much more than Canada does because they want to be the best.
Tony Evangelista: In terms of finances, you can't really compare Canada and the U.S. But they still are far from the best in soccer.
Rednation Online: Do you think that Australia, Japan and South Korea provide models that Canada can follow?
Tony Evangelista: Basically, yes.
RedNation Online: We need to reach the level of those teams and their structures before we can get to the next level above them.
Tony Evangelista: One step at a time.
RedNation Online: I read a lot of quotes from Canadian National Team players before this most recent set of World Cup Qualifying matches and many of them said that 2009 was Canada's best chance in a long time to qualify due to the professional quality of the players and that this player plays in Germany and this player plays in Spain and so on. They all felt that this team had the players and the talent required to qualify for the World Cup. And yet they did not.
Tony Evangelista: I think they had enough quality players and talent for them to be more successful this time - for sure. But you need a coach who knows what he is doing, especially at that level. But, again, you have to pay for these people.
RedNation Online: That's a big part of why you see teams like Russia doing well. They went out and paid to get Guus Hiddink.
Tony Evangelista: Yes. And now you have an Italian coaching leading England.
RedNation Online: But it also did not work with Sven-Goran Eriksson, who bombed out with both England and Mexico.
Tony Evangelista: Yes.
RedNation Online: Then technically, given everything you have said thus far, talking about money, England should be the best team in the world. They have the most financially successful professional leagues in the world.
Tony Evangelista: Yes.
RedNation Online: Just in terms of the number of leagues, the number of players, television contracts and having the most money, they should be more successful than say Germany or Italy.
Tony Evangelista: They should be, but what I have seen is that overall they have not developed their technical and tactical side of soccer to the same level. Their problem is not money. Our problem is money - we have to conquer that before we can get to the next level.
RedNation Online: And they also have a very large number of foreign players playing in their leagues, more than the other European leagues. If you looked at the English sides in the Champions League, how many English players actually played. That's their problem. For their National Team they don't have the quality to get far in the World Cup.
Tony Evangelista: The professional leagues are not only for generating revenue for the national team, they are also the primary mechanism for developing local professional talent. And when you bring in the best talent in the world it helps all the players in the league develop.
RedNation Online: But it hasn't happened that way for England. And you are right, because twenty years ago the English style was kick and run and now they play on the ground, three or four passes and they are at the opposing end. They are on the ground but fast.
Tony Evangelista: Yes, now kick and run is only about 20 percent of the game. They have developed tactically in that sense.
RedNation Online: What are your expectations for England in the 2010 World Cup? You can't say that they haven't developed good players - they have good players.
Tony Evangelista: Oh yeah, they have good players. They have excellent players. They just need to bring them together correctly. Capello will help in that regard.
RedNation Online: And you think that Canada also has some quality players?
Tony Evangelista: Canada has always had quality players. The Canadian amateur system - the youth system - is probably one of the best in the world. I'm serious. We have a lot of talent here, especially with our diverse ethnic background. The Canadian Immigration policy provides Canadian soccer with a cultural continuity that is soccer-centric.
RedNation Online: You see it at the grassroots level. It used to be that you saw all kids playing hockey. Now you probably see more playing soccer.
Tony Evangelista: That's right. It's how things are evolving. I'm now teaching my grandson to play and that is how kids are getting that knowledge and enjoyment of soccer, because I am passing it on. That's evolution for you.
RedNation Online: I guess we are just becoming impatient for National Team success, because in terms of excitement and fan interest, TFC has taken off so quickly. We have great professional players on Team Canada. Now it's like we want international success as well.
Tony Evangelista: But that does take time. I remember 1986 and the Canadian Team that qualified.
RedNation Online: I guess we'll all have to be patient then. It sounds like the MLS really is the missing piece and we need to give it some time to provide the funds and players that the National Team needs to be successful.
Tony Evangelista: Yeah.
RedNation Online: Other than that it sounds like the National Team would also benefit from getting an International Coach.
Tony Evangelista: A professional coach. Not an amateur coach. They need someone knowledgeable. The team already has good talent. No disrespect to Dale Mitchell, but I honestly believe that if they had had a better qualified coach leading up to these World Cup qualifiers, they would have qualified. Maybe a 2nd division Italian or German coach. Right now is the era of European coaches.
RedNation Online: So Canada should not employ a Canadian coach?
Tony Evangelista: How can you expect Canada to develop Coaches of the level required? It is the same as players and referees, they need a vehicle to develop as well. The main reason that I was able to develop as a referee was because of the NASL. This is why the MLS is important for players, referees and coaches as well. Had I not had the NASL, it would have been harder for me to develop as a professional. You need to have a professional game every week. It's really the same with developing any profession. What if you only went as far as Grade 5 in school? That natural evolution for all people is to then go to Grade 6 and then high school and then college or university and then your Masters or PhD. It's the same thing in soccer. That is how you develop.
RedNation Online: Given what you know about the inner workings of the CSA, are you confident that when they have more financial resources they will bring in the required professional coaches? Or are they threatened by professional people?
Tony Evangelista: I think they want to. Sure they do. Who wouldn't want to progress to that level where people won't constantly be saying, "What the hell are you doing?" Right now they simply don't have the means.
RedNation Online: I have one final question for today. Who do you think was the greatest Canadian player of all time and what made him special?
Tony Evangelista: Bruce Wilson. He was just a great player. He reminds me of a lot of Zambrotta from the Italian National Team and AC Milan. Wilson was a little smaller, but he had the talent. He was an attacking fullback. Lenarduzzi was pretty good player as well. He didn't have the talent that Wilson has but he was a pretty good player.
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